Did Musa Tell Fir’awn (Pharaoh) that Allah was “Up”?

By Abul Layth on Feb 15, 2008 in Aqeedah (Creed), Heteredoxy | 1,077 article views

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 A brother, may Allah (SWT) guide him and us, recently asserted that Musaa (’alayhis salaam) told Fir’awn that Allah (SWT) was “up”, and this resulted in Fir’awn building a tower to reach the “heavens”. The aayaat from the Qur’an that he is referring to follow:

وقال فرعون يا أيها الملأ ما علمت لكم من إله غيري فأوقد لي يا هامان على الطين فاجعل لي صرحا لعلي أطلع إلى إله موسى وإني لأظنه من الكاذبين

Pharaoh said: “O Chiefs! no god do I know for you but myself: therefore, O Haman! light me a (kiln to bake bricks) out of clay, and build me a lofty palace, that I may mount up to the god of Moses: but as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!” [28:38]

and also,

وَقَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ يَا هَامَانُ ابْنِ لِي صَرْحاً لَّعَلِّي أَبْلُغُ الْأَسْبَابَ

أَسْبَابَ السَّمَاوَاتِ فَأَطَّلِعَ إِلَى إِلَهِ مُوسَى وَإِنِّي لَأَظُنُّهُ كَاذِباً وَكَذَلِكَ زُيِّنَ لِفِرْعَوْنَ سُوءُ عَمَلِهِ وَصُدَّ عَنِ السَّبِيلِ وَمَا كَيْدُ فِرْعَوْنَ إِلَّفِي تَبَابٍ  

Pharaoh said: “O Haman! Build me a lofty palace, that I may attain the ways and means- The ways and means of (reaching) the heavens, and that I may mount up to the god of Moses: But as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!” [Qur'an 40:36-37]

The above verse was used in ‘Aqidat Al-Wasitiyyah to “prove” that Allah (SWT) is “up“. The late neo-muqaatili, Salih Al-Fawzan states in his explanation of the waasitiyyah, as translated by “Aboo Waheeda As-Salafee”:

“In it is affirmation of the ‘uluww (highness) of Allah (SWT) over his creations. Such that Prophet Musa (’alayhis salaam) affirmed this and called to it. And then Fir’awn denied this.”

Our objective in this article is to answer the “why?” What was the driving force, or belief, that made Fir’awn imagine the god of Musa to be above the heavens?

 Leonard Lesko in his article, “Egyptian Religion an Overview” found within Encyclopedia of Religion.1 states,

Much more significant for an understanding of the religion of this period and of much that had been developing and evolving before it are the Pyramid Texts, first recorded in the interior burial rooms of the pyramid of Unas, the last king of the fifth dynasty. These texts in vertical columns, lacking the illustrations and rubrics of later such mortuary or funerary literature, provided a combination of rituals, hymns, prayers, incantations, and offering lists, all designed to ensure that the king would reach his goal in the afterlife and have the information and provisions that he would need there. The texts were evidently compiled by priests connected with the temple of Re at Heliopolis. They indicate acceptance of the fact that the king is a god who ascends to the sky, joins Re on the solar bark for his voyage back and forth across the heavens, and guards Re and guides his bark past the perils, usually snakes, that threaten them.

Page 2705:

“Huh and Hauhet (formlessness), and Nun and Naunet (the watery abyss). The creator god of Hermopolis might well have been Thoth, the moon god of that city, but in these Heliopolitan texts the creator remains Atum, while Thoth is included as a member of the Ennead and as a companion of Re in the sky.”

The ritual of building lofty buildings to converse with the “gods” is historically woven in pharaonic doctrine. Christian Jacq writes in Magic and Mystery in Ancient Egypt:

“Standing before the gods, the Pharaoh shows his authority. He orders them to construct a staircase so that he may climb to the sky. If they do not obey him, they will have neither food nor offerings. But the king takes one precaution. It is not he himself, as an individual, who speaks, but the divine power: “It is not I who say this to you, the gods, it is the Magic who speaks. When the Pharaoh completes his climb, magic at his feet “The sky trembles”, he asserts, “the earth shivers before me, for I am a magician, I possess magic”. It is also he who installs the gods on their thrones, thus proving that the cosmos recognises his omnipotence.”

In “The Great Goddesses of Egypt” Barbara S. Lesko writes that there are also the example of the goddess “Nut” who resides in the “heavens”. According to the manuscripts and hieroglyphics “Nut” said:

“I spread myself out over this my son, in my name of the Mysterious One, the one whom Geb establishes…. I am Nut the Great, the Mighty, the Uraeus-serpent, the soul of the Glorious One, for I was powerful in the body of my mother Tefnut, in my name of Nut, in order to be powerful over my mother. It is with my beauty that I have guided everyone. Moreover, the earth is under me to its limit, I having seized it, having taken hold of the South and the North. What my arms embraced is inside my two arms, that I may make Osiris live. May you live forever and ever, King of Upper and Lower Egypt.”

On page 88 of the same work,

“The one body of religious texts we have from this early period are the above-mentioned Pyramid Texts, or funerary spells, engraved in large blue hieroglyphs on the stone walls of royal burial crypts in the Fifth and Sixth dynasties, but these are mainly spells intended to propel the dead king or queen into the arms of the gods in the heavens.”

In the book, “Ancient Egyptians: People of the Pyramids” we find,

“The god Amun is seated on a throne, and he is announcing to an assembly of the gods that he intends to give Egypt a new king. Thoth, the god of learning and wisdom, recommends to i Amun that he choose Ahmose, the wife of Thutmose I, to be the mother of this new ruler. The next scene shows Amun and Ahmose seated on the heavens and facing each other.”
((pg91 )) 

Yet another example that they believed gods were in the heavensis that of Ramesses.

“Ramesses’s personality, however, seems the exact opposite, especially if we read the record of his reign as commissioned by his son and heir Ramesses IV:

“I planted the whole land with trees and verdure, and I made the people dwell in their shade. . . . I sustained the whole land, whether foreigners, common folk, citizens, or people, male or female. . . . The land was well satisfied with my reign. I did good to the gods, as well as to the people, and I had nothing at all belonging to any people…. Behold, I have gone to rest in the afterworld, like my father Re, I have mingled with the great gods in heaven, earth, and the afterworld. Amun-Re has established my son on my throne.” (pg 169)

A fine discussion has been produced by the brethren at Islamic-awarness.org pertaining to the topic of the pharaohs building towards to the heavens to ‘converse with the gods’.

Click Here to Read More

 Conclusion: The notion that god(s) is “up” or towards the skies and the heavens was known as doctrine even prior to the advent of the Prophet Musaa. There is absolutely no proof that Musaa taught Pharaoh that Allah (SWT) ta’alaa was LITERALLY in the “heavens and on a throne” etc. The usage of these verses of the neo-muqaatiliyyah were not utilized by the orthodox salaf to prove anything, rather, they have been used by the khalaf to prove the absurdities of the unorthodox.

The Qadhi of Andalusia, Ibn Al-’Arabi wrote refuting Ibn Abdul-Barr:

” [...] They (i.e. the anthropomorphists) say: All the firm believers in the oneness of Allah (SWT) raise their hands to the heavens when supplicating him, and if Musa had not said to Pharaoh: “My Lord is in the Heaven.” Pharoah would not have said: “Oh Haamaan! Build for me a lofty tower in order that I may survey the god of Moses!” (28:38)

We say: “You are lying about Musaa (’alayhis salaam), he never stated such! However, your conclusion shows that you are indeed the followers of Fir’awn, who believed that the Creator lies in directions, and thus he desired to climb up to Him on a ladder. He congratulates you for being of his followers, and he is certainly your Imam!”

There is agreement of Ahlus Sunnah that Allah (SWT) has no place, that he is as He was before he created time and space, and that the directions do not encompass Him. Imam  Ash-Shafi’i (rahimuhullah) is recorded to have said,

إنه تعالى كان ولا مكان فخلق المكان وهو على صفة الأزلية كما كان قبل خلقه المكان لا يجوز عليه التغيير في ذاته ولا التبديل في صفاته

“He, the exalted, was existent without place, [then] He created ‘Place/Space’, and He was upon the attribute of sempeternity, just as he was prior to creating “Place”. It is not permitted [to ascribe to him] change within his essence or tabdeel (change) in his sifaat (attributes).”2

The Jurist and Imam, Abu Is-haq Ash-Shiraazi Ash-Shafi’i (476 A.H) stated in his treatise on ‘Aqidah,

“Certainly, Allah (SWT)’s Istiwaa’ is without istiqraar (sitting) and without contingency ( ملاصقة) that is because both are qualities of created bodies (entities), and The Lord, mighty and magnificent, is eternal, and this proves that He was without space/place, then he created place and He still was upon what He had been upon.” ['Aqidat Ash-Shiraazi]

 Ibn Hajr states in his Fat-hul-Baari:

فمنهم من حمله على ظاهره وحقيقته وهم المشبهة تعالى الله عن قولهم

“And from them are those that carry the meaning (of nuzool) upon its thaahir (apparent) and literal, and they are the Mushabbihah (anthropomorphists), and exalted is Allah (SWT) from what they say!”3

There is yet another point mentioned by Imam Fakhrud-Din Ar-Raazi:

In Razi’s al-Tafsir al-Kabir he says,

“The world is a sphere. If this is so, it is then impossible for the god of the world to occur in the direction of ‘up’. If we were to imagine two men, one of them on the point of the east and the other on the point of the west, the bottoms of their feet would be facing one another. Therefore, what is up with relation to one of them would be down with relation to the second. As for God, Exalted in Highness, to be below this ephermal world is impossible by the agreement of [almost] everyone, so it is a must that He not be in a specific place.”

[tr. `Abdullah bin Hamid Ali, The Attributes of God, p.62]

To read more on this issue click here.
 

Footnotes (Click ↩ at the end of the note to Go Back to Original Place in the article) :
  1. Ed. Lindsay Jones. Vol. 4. 2nd ed. Detroit: Macmillan Reference USA, 2005. p2702-2717. [↩]
  2. It-haaf As-Saadat Al-Muttaqin 2/24 [↩]
  3. Fat-hul Baari 3/30 [↩]

15 Comment(s)

  1. On Feb 15, 2008, Abul Layth said:

    I edited this article after publication adding the words of Qadhi Ibn Al Arabi.

  2. On Feb 15, 2008, Dawud Israel said:

    And what about the hadith of the Prophet SAAWS when he asked one of the believers where is Allah (SWT) and the Muslim pointed up. And the Prophet nodded.

    I can get it for you and post it here soon Insha Allah (SWT). :)

  3. On Feb 15, 2008, Abul Layth said:

    Brother Dawud, may Allah (SWT) continue to bless you, Shaykh Nuh Keller has written a very thorough article on this issue:

    http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/inthesky.htm

    here is the very relevant part, though his entire article should be read:

    In this connection, a hadith has been related by Malik in his Muwatta’ and by Muslim in his Sahih, that Muawiya ibn al-Hakam came to the Prophet (Allah (SWT) bless him and give him peace) and told him, “I am very newly from the Jahiliyya, and now Allah (SWT) has brought Islam,” and he proceeded to ask about various Jahiliyya practices, until at last he said that he had slapped his slave girl, and asked if he should free her, as was obligatory if she was a believer. The Prophet (Allah (SWT) bless him and give him peace) requested that she be brought, and then asked her, “Where is Allah (SWT)?” and she said, “In the sky (Fi al-sama)”; whereupon he asked her, “Who am I?” and she said, “You are the Messenger of Allah (SWT)”; at which he said, Free her, “for she is a believer” (Sahih Muslim, 5 vols. Cairo 1376/1956. Reprint. Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1403/1983, 1.382: 538). Imam Nawawi says of this hadith:
    This is one of the “hadiths of the attributes,” about which scholars have two positions. The first is to have faith in it without discussing its meaning, while believing of Allah (SWT) Most High that “there is nothing whatsoever like unto Him” (Qur’an 42:11), and that He is exalted above having any of the attributes of His creatures. The second is to figuratively explain it in a fitting way, scholars who hold this position adducing that the point of the hadith was to test the slave girl: Was she a monotheist, who affirmed that the Creator, the Disposer, the Doer, is Allah (SWT) alone and that He is the one called upon when a person making supplication (du’a) faces the sky–just as those performing the prayer (salat) face the Kaaba, since the sky is the qibla of those who supplicate, as the Kaaba is the qibla of those who perform the prayer–or was she a worshipper of the idols which they placed in front of themselves? So when she said, In the sky, it was plain that she was not an idol worshipper (Sahih Muslim bi Sharh al-Nawawi. 18 vols. Cairo 1349/1930. Reprint (18 vols. in 9). Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1401/1981, 5.24).
    It is noteworthy that Imam Nawawi does not mention understanding the hadith literally as a possible scholarly position at all. This occasions surprise today among some Muslims, who imagine that what is at stake is the principle of accepting a single rigorously authenticated (sahih) hadith as evidence in Islamic faith (`aqida), for this hadith is such a single hadith, of those termed in Arabic ahad, or “conveyed by a single chain of transmission”, as opposed to being mutawatir or “conveyed by so many chains of transmission that it is impossible it could have been forged”.
    Yet this is not what is at stake, because hadiths of its type are only considered acceptable as evidence by traditional scholars of Islamic `aqida if one condition can be met: that the tenet of faith mentioned in the hadith is salimun min al-muarada or “free of conflicting evidence”. This condition is not met by this particular hadith for a number of reasons. First, the story described in the hadith has come to us in a number of other well-authenticated versions that vary a great deal from the “Where is Allah (SWT)?–In the sky” version. One of these is related by Ibn Hibban in his Sahih with a well-authenticated (hasan) chain of transmission, in which the Prophet (Allah (SWT) bless him and give him peace) asked the slave girl, “‘Who is your Lord?’ and she said, ‘Allah (SWT)’; whereupon he asked her, ‘Who am I?’ and she said, ‘You are the Messenger of Allah (SWT)’; at which he said, ‘Free her, for she is a believer’” (al-Ihsan fi taqrib Sahih Ibn Hibban, 18 vols. Beirut: Muassasa al-Risala, 1408/1988, 1.419: 189).

    In another version, related by Abd al-Razzaq with a rigorously authenticated (sahih) chain of transmission, the Prophet (Allah (SWT) bless him and give him peace) said to her, “Do you testify that there is no god but Allah (SWT)?” and she said yes. He said, “Do you testify that I am the Messenger of Allah (SWT)?” and she said yes. He said, “Do you believe in resurrection after death?” and she said yes. He said, “Free her” (al-Musannaf, 11 vols. Beirut: al-Majlis al-Ilmi, 1390/1970, 9.175: 16814).

    In other versions, the slave girl cannot speak, but merely points to the sky in answer. Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani has said of the various versions of this hadith, “There is great contradiction in the wording” (Talkhis al-habir, 4 vols. in 2. Cairo: Maktaba al-Kulliyat al-Azhariyya, 1399/1979, 3.250). When a hadith has numerous conflicting versions, there is a strong possibility that it has been related merely in terms of what one or more narrators understood (riwaya bi al-ma’na), and hence one of the versions is not adequate to establish a point of `aqida.

    Second, this latter consideration is especially applicable to the point in question because the Prophet (Allah (SWT) bless him and give him peace) explicitly detailed the pillars of Islamic faith (iman) in a hadith related in Sahih Muslim when he answered the questions of the angel Gabriel, saying, True faith (iman) is to believe in Allah (SWT), His angels, His Books, His messengers, the Last Day, and to believe destiny (qadr), its good and evil (Sahih Muslim, 1.37: 8)–and he did not mention anything about Allah (SWT) being “in the sky”. If it had been the decisive test of a Muslims belief or unbelief (as in the “in the sky” hadith seems to imply), it would have been obligatory for the Prophet (Allah (SWT) bless him and give him peace) to mention it in this hadith, the whole point of which is to say precisely what “iman is”.

    Third, if one takes the hadith as meaning that Allah (SWT) is literally “in the sky”, it conflicts with other equally sahih hadiths that have presumably equal right to be taken literally–such as the hadith qudsi related by al-Hakim that Allah (SWT) Most High says, “I am with My servant when he makes remembrance of Me and his lips move with Me” (al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn. 4 vols. Hyderabad, 1334/1916. Reprint (with index vol. 5). Beirut: Dar al-Marifa, n.d., 1.496), a hadith that al- Hakim said was rigorously authenticated (sahih), which al-Dhahabi confirmed. Or such as the hadith related by al-Nasai, Abu Dawud, and Muslim that “the closest a servant is to his Lord is while prostrating” (Sahih Muslim, 1.350: 482)–whereas if Allah (SWT) were literally “in the sky”, the closest one would be to Him would be while standing upright. Or such as the hadith related by al-Bukhari in his Sahih, in which the Prophet (Allah (SWT) bless him and give him peace) forbade spitting during prayer ahead of one, because when a person prays, “his Lord is in front of him” (Sahih al-Bukhari, 1.112: 406). Finally, in the hadiths of the Mir’aj or “Nocturnal Ascent”, the Prophet (Allah (SWT) bless him and give him peace) was shown all of the seven heavens (samawat) by Gabriel, and Allah (SWT) was not mentioned as being in any of them.

    Fourth, the literal interpretation of Allah (SWT) being “in the sky” contradicts two fundamentals of Islamic `aqida established by the Qur’an. The first of these is Allah (SWT)’s attribute of mukhalafa li al- hawadith or “not resembling created things in any way”, as Allah (SWT) says in surat al-Shura, “There is nothing whatsoever like unto Him” (Qur’an 42:11), whereas if He were literally “in the sky”, there would be innumerable things like unto Him in such respects as having altitude, position, direction, and so forth. The second fundamental that it contradicts, as mentioned above, is Allah (SWT)’s attribute of ghina or “being absolutely free of need for anything created” that He affirms in numerous verses in the Qur’an. It is impossible that Allah (SWT) could be a corporeal entity because bodies need space and time, while Allah (SWT) has absolutely no need for anything.

    Fifth, the literalist interpretation of “in the sky” entails that the sky encompasses Allah (SWT) on all sides, such that He would be smaller than it, and it would thus be greater than Allah (SWT), which is patently false.

    For these reasons and others, Islamic scholars have viewed it obligatory to figuratively interpret the above hadith and other texts containing similar figures of speech, in ways consonant with how the Arabic language is used. Consider the Qur’anic verse “Do you feel safe that He who is in the sky will not make the earth swallow you while it quakes” (Qur’an 67:16), for which the following examples of traditional tafsir or “Qur’anic commentary” can be offered:

    (al-Qurtubi:) The more exacting scholars hold that it ["in the sky"] means, “Do you feel secure from Him who is over the sky”–just as Allah (SWT) says, “Journey in the earth” (Qur’an 9:2), meaning journey over it–not over the sky by way of physical contact or spatialization, but by way of omnipotent power and control. Another position is that it means “Do you feel secure from Him who is over (’ala) the sky,” just as it is said, “So-and-so is over Iraq and the Hijaz”, meaning that he is the governor and commander of them (al-Jami li ahkam al-Qur’an, 18.216).
    (al-Shirbini al-Khatib:) There are various interpretive aspects to “He who is in the sky,” one of which is that it means “He whose dominion is in the sky,” because it is the dwelling place of the angels, and there are His Throne, His Kursi, the Guarded Tablet; and from it are made to descend His decrees, His Books, His commands, and His prohibitions. A second interpretive possibility is that “He who is in the sky” omits the first term of an ascriptive construction (idafa)–in other words, “Do you feel safe from the Creator of him who is in the sky”; meaning the angels who dwell in the sky, for they are the ones who are commanded to dispense the divine mercy or divine vengeance (al-Siraj al-Munir. 4 vols. Bulaq 1285/1886. Reprint. Beirut: Dar al-Marifa, n.d., 4.344).

    (Fakhr al-Din al-Razi:) “He who is in the sky” may mean the angel who is authorized to inflict divine punishments; that is, Gabriel (upon whom be peace); the words “cause the earth to swallow you” meaning “by Allah (SWT)’s command and leave” (Tafsir al-Fakhr al-Razi. 32 vols. Beirut 1401/1981. Reprint (32 vols. in 16). Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1405/1985, 30.70).

    (Abu Hayyan al-Nahwi:) Or the context of these words may be according to the convictions of those being addressed [the unbelievers], for they were anthropomorphists. So that the meaning would be, “Do you feel safe from Him whom you claim is in the sky?–while He is exalted above all place” (Tafsir al-nahr al-madd min al-Bahr al-muhit. 2 vols. in 3. Beirut: Dar al-Janan and Muassasa al-Kutub al-Thaqafiyya, 1407/1987, 2.1132).

    (Qadi Iyad:) There is no disagreement among Muslims, one and all–their legal scholars, their hadith scholars, their scholars of theology, both those of them capable of expert scholarly reasoning and those who merely follow the scholarship of others–that the textual evidences that mention Allah (SWT) Most High being “in the sky”, such as His words, “Do you feel safe that He who is in the sky will not make the earth swallow you,” and so forth, are not as their literal sense (dhahir) seems to imply, but rather, all scholars interpret them in other than their ostensive sense (Sahih Muslim bi Sharh al-Nawawi, 5.24).

  4. On Feb 16, 2008, abu Zayd said:

    It seems like some people will never give up kalam when it comes to ‘aqidah and that they will go far and wide to try to discredit the athar; insha’Allah (SWT) that’s why we have the day of judgment, where Allah (SWT) will give every person what they deserve. so, let these people continue with their kalam –until they pollute themselves and those that are around them, let them fight the clear athar which comes in various turuq (ways) and in the end, there is the day of judgment.

  5. On Feb 16, 2008, Dawud Israel said:

    Abul Layth that was a nice read, masha Allah (SWT).

    I’m kind of lost as to what your Aqeedah is …I thought you were Ashari? I say this because this is what I follow:

    “The first is to have faith in it without discussing its meaning, while believing of Allah (SWT) Most High that “there is nothing whatsoever like unto Him” (Qur’an 42:11)”

  6. On Feb 17, 2008, Abul Layth said:

    It seems like some people will never give up kalam when it comes to ‘aqidah and that they will go far and wide to try to discredit the athar; insha’Allah (SWT) that’s why we have the day of judgment, where Allah (SWT) will give every person what they deserve. so, let these people continue with their kalam –until they pollute themselves and those that are around them, let them fight the clear athar which comes in various turuq (ways) and in the end, there is the day of judgment.

    Are we supposed to be afraid of your fear mongering? We will be happy to meet Allah (SWT) on the day of Judgment knowing that we did not lie upon Him by saying he had literal body parts.

    Kalaam is only utilized in necessity, and defeating the plague of anthropomorphism that has unfortunately spread in this era of fitnah, is without a doubt a necessity.

    Dawud Israel, an Asha’ri generally believes that remaining silent and entrusting the knowledge and thus meaning of Allah (SWT)’s sifaat etc to Him suffices and is safest. However, some asha’ris preffered interpreting the texts, such as Imam Al-Juwayni, the Imam of Imam Al Ghazzali. Even those who made tafwid (consigned the meaning to Allah (SWT)), still left the door open to interpretation as long as such interpretation has a foundation in the language of the ‘arabs.

    My creed is the creed of Imam Al-Juwayni, Ghazzali, and the majority of this Ummah, the multitude of Asha’ris and Maaturidis that defended the creed of Islam against the Karramiyyah Haashiwiyyah - neo Muqaatiliyya. It is that simple.

    Shukran Brother,
    Abul Layth

  7. On Feb 17, 2008, mustafa said:

    as salaamu alaykum

    some of aqida al-sahiha by ibn khafif rahimahullah http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=6720

  8. On Feb 25, 2008, Muslim said:

    As Salaamu alaikum

    Anu Zayd you have the manners of a khawarji, if someone doesn’t agree with you then off to hell with them. I know because I used to be upon this that your heart feels hard, so remeber that also only pure hearts will enter jannah if you want to bring up the hereafter.

  9. On May 27, 2008, Abdurrahman R. Squires said:

    As-salamu ‘alaykum,

    This is a well-written and much welcomed article, especially because it’s so devastating to the present day anthropomorphists.

    Well if Moses (as) had really been given the time to teach Pharaoh proper ‘aqidah, one of the first things he would have taught him is that Almighty God is transcendent above (i.e. outside) His creation, thus even if you could build a tower a million miles high, you’d never reach Him…since He, subhanahu wa ta’ala, is not in a created place (or any “place” for that matter). Based on that, I don’t think Pharaoh was acting on anything that Moses (as) taught him, but on his own misguided notions…and that should come as no surprise since we are talking about Pharaoh here.

    Some of the “Salafis” that I know do indeed recognize that Allah (SWT) is outside of His creation. They do this by interpreting the “ala” and “fi” in key ayat and ahadith as meaning “above” (which seems to have some linguistic merit in the Arabic language). They seem to realize, in contrast to some of their more simple-minded and crude brethren, that anyone who believes that Allah (SWT) Most High is literally “in” any part of His creation is not much better than an incarnationist Christian or Hindu. The other “Salafis”, as you’ve so rightly pointed out, don’t seem to have much problem taking their ‘aqidah from Pharoah!

    As a new Muslim, I attended lessons in Kuwait by a “Salafi” shaykh that was shockingly anthropomorphic, and I recall him using the “Pharaoh wanted to go up to see Allah (SWT)” argument. After that, I could understand where the tongue-in-cheek accusation that Wahhabis worship the “sky god of Najd” came from. It saddens me to see so many well-intentioned but religiously unaware Muslims getting duped by this movement.

    Anyway…isn’t it rather hypocritical that some Muslims criticize others for engaging in kalam although it’s their own sect that is well-known (or should I say “infamous”) for starting such debates. Indeed, it’s the “Salafis” that generally go around telling Muslims that their ‘aqidah in all wrong. Instead of simply accepting the fact that they’ve said the Shahadah, as the Sunnah requires, they ask them: “Where is Allah (SWT)?” Everyone should know that even the staunchly “athari” Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal didn’t give up disputation and kalam when faced with heretical ideas that needed to be dealt with…

    So may Allah (SWT) bless you for your efforts!

  10. On May 27, 2008, Abul Layth said:

    Jazakum Allahu Khairan,

    These neo-muqaatiliyya are aristotelian, yet they bark about kalaam! Their da’wah to pagan beliefs is dying. Their “salafi” movement is being replaced by Sunnism, and their ranks are decreasing daily.

  11. On May 29, 2008, faqir said:

    Great quote from Qadi ibn al-Arabi

    The quote from al-Wasitiyya would be nice.

    By the way, here is what wahabi preacher Saalih al-Fawzaan says about the status of Qadi Abu Bakr Ibn al-Arabi:

    “As for Ibnul Arabee, with the definite article [attached to the name Arabee], then he is the well-known, lofty imaam, Aboo Bakr ibnul Arabee, al-Maalikee who had noble writings in the area of hadeeth and tafseer and a noble book, defending the Companions, which he called al-Awaasim minal Qawaasim.

    He defended in that book, Islaam and the Companions of the Messenger of Allaah, sallallaahu alaihe wa alaa Aalihee wa Sahbihee wa sallam.

    It is a noble book and he also has a book entitled Tafseeru Aayaatil Ahkaam, in two huge, volumes. He also has an explanation of the Sunan of [al-Imaam] at-Tirmidhee called Aaridatul Ahwadhee fee sharhit Tirmidhee.

    All of these books are published and to be [easily] found and all the praise is due to Allaah. “

  12. On May 29, 2008, faqir said:

    Source: al-Muntaqaa minal Fataawaa of the noble Shaikh Saalih al-Fawzaan, volume two, pages 306-07

  13. On May 30, 2008, Mustafa said:

    as salaamu alaykum,

    Abu Bakr ibn arabi rahimahullah is indeed respected. But i dont think that quote from shaykh salih al fawzaan is really sufficient evidence that one should take creed from him also. But i did indeed find his (ibn arabi) response to be very interesting.

  14. On May 30, 2008, Mustafa said:

    as salaamu alaykum,

    akhi i read from that site. I thought it be interesting but it seems so complicating. Why cant we just accept the quran and sunnah as it is and not deal with philosophy?

  15. On May 30, 2008, Abul Layth said:

    Well, firstly what is “philosophy”? One of its definitions is,

    a system of principles for guidance in practical affairs.

    So Islam, is thus philosophy.

    Secondly, Allah (SWT) does not tell you to be stupid. He tells you to think, contemplate, reflect, and understand throughout the Qur’an.

    أفلا تعقلون

    Anyone can read the texts but not everyone can understand. This is the reality of knowledge.

    The da’wah of pseudo-salafism, and of those who imitate them, is to abandon intellectual discourse. It is to abandon contemplation and “fiqh”. If one thinks they can simply pick up the “Qur’an” and “Sunnah” and understand it, then they are mistaken.

    -Reasons for revelation
    -Knowledge of the context
    -Aathaar pertaining to it
    -Knowledge of the sciences of hadith in order to understand what is authentic and what is not
    -Immense knowledge of the Language - sarf nahu etc
    -Abrogation and Abrogating
    -Knowing the different methods of recitation so as not to miss an underlying meaning

    So accepting the Qur’an and Sunnah “As it is” is to reflect and contemplate its meanings. It is to extract from the texts intent of the speaker(s), or deeper underlying meanings. This is what makes the Qur’an and Sunnah so spectacular in depth and breadth. Your claim to simplicity, truly a disguise for ignorance, is really a claim to abandonment of the Qur’an and Sunnah. It is as Allah (SWT) says:

    يؤتي الحكمة من يشاء ومن يؤت الحكمة فقد أوتي خيرا كثيرا وما يذكر إلا أولو الألباب

    “He granteth wisdom to whom He pleaseth; and he to whom wisdom is granted receiveth indeed a benefit overflowing; but none will grasp the Message but men of understanding.”

    Mujaahid, the student of Ibn ‘Abbas, defines hikmah here as: “the Qur’an, Knowledge, and understanding [fiqh].”

    Ibrahim An-Nakha’i states, “It is the knowing (ma’rifah) of the meaning of things, and understanding them.” [Tafsir Al-Baghawi]

    So Allah (SWT) selects a few men who are granted this “Hikmah”. May Allah (SWT) make us of them Amin!

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